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	<title>Comments on: More Efficient Factory Development</title>
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	<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/</link>
	<description>The latest news from the openSUSE project</description>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6974</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would be happy if all the current apps work first time and so would the rest of the World. In the above I was only referring to current apps.
Yes I understand your dilemma with digital rights and patents - its horrible and yes I understand the huge amount of politics involved - after all the center of the World is the USA and no one lets us all to ever forget ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would be happy if all the current apps work first time and so would the rest of the World. In the above I was only referring to current apps.<br />
Yes I understand your dilemma with digital rights and patents &#8211; its horrible and yes I understand the huge amount of politics involved &#8211; after all the center of the World is the USA and no one lets us all to ever forget ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6958</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6958</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott, what you&#039;re describing sounds like the problem of technology everywhere. Not only will software have these problems, whether you are using Linux or some other OS, but the hardware will have these same problems as well. And you probably have absolutely no idea of what I&#039;m talking about. The true problems we face are not technological (which is the case that you seem to be making), or corporate, they are political as not all political systems respect property rights (not even GNU GPL rights).

Don&#039;t misunderstand my point of view, many patents in the U.S. could probably be forced to expired given the proper legislation for interoperability purposes, whether it be multimedia codecs, or whatever. The whole purpose of patents under U.S. law is to provide for the funding for R&amp;D. Expirations are set on patents under U.S. law to prevent monopolies. I don&#039;t think that the U.S. congress would be opposed to forcing expirations on technologies long held by monopolies. The problem I&#039;m speaking of is when governments modify this code for their own advantage and fail to provide their modifications as they are required to by the GNU GPL. One would have to declare war on such a nation (with bombs and ammunition) to force compliance.

These are the real problems we face.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, what you&#8217;re describing sounds like the problem of technology everywhere. Not only will software have these problems, whether you are using Linux or some other OS, but the hardware will have these same problems as well. And you probably have absolutely no idea of what I&#8217;m talking about. The true problems we face are not technological (which is the case that you seem to be making), or corporate, they are political as not all political systems respect property rights (not even GNU GPL rights).</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t misunderstand my point of view, many patents in the U.S. could probably be forced to expired given the proper legislation for interoperability purposes, whether it be multimedia codecs, or whatever. The whole purpose of patents under U.S. law is to provide for the funding for R&amp;D. Expirations are set on patents under U.S. law to prevent monopolies. I don&#8217;t think that the U.S. congress would be opposed to forcing expirations on technologies long held by monopolies. The problem I&#8217;m speaking of is when governments modify this code for their own advantage and fail to provide their modifications as they are required to by the GNU GPL. One would have to declare war on such a nation (with bombs and ammunition) to force compliance.</p>
<p>These are the real problems we face.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6928</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Feb 2009 22:00:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6928</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The other major issue is the number of packages, ancillary to default groups, and ancillary to every release. There appears no standard in offering standard applications in each KDE/Gnome release. For example where has acroread gone in 11.0 11.1 etc, where has Ksystemlog gone from 10.2-10.3-11.0, where has the application quickstarter gone from KDE3.5 in 10.3, why has koffice been suddenly added to default categories of a KDE 4.n installation, where has GKreIIM gone. Applications, come and go out of default grouping or removed from the media and placed into optional build services. Its not that I think we need to include thousands of optional offerings in both groups categories. All I am suggesting is that we be consistent and have a standard.
As a development project, ancillary applications come and go from installation media without reason and in this industry the lack of standards and defaults only points to poor or no control over the development project.

Our expectations are substantially poor - we excuse no or poor application development and testing because of our open industry.

We accept far too readily that bugs in their high hundreds are acceptable.

We become complacent in the number of times we accept a RC1 candidates to be mastered and released on mass without thought of going to an RC8 etc.

We will never be realized as a serious competitor to the other monstrously dismal technical prowess of the other O/S because the market place does not give a dam about technical excellence at the root of Linux.

NO I.T manager is going to look at us if his/her job suffers user backlash by users who just want to click and have an application work - every time.

End users and non-technical CEO&#039;s will never accept an I.T Managers selection of our technically better O/S or application software, Open or Enterprise who is sacked for a tangible increase in cost of any Industries loss of administrative and automation dependent productivity.

I love how much we grow, I love the inclusion of the worlds minds, I love the equity in our technical right to produce or increase workplace standards.

I cry defending the front end/back end/middle end/command line of an out of focus window or debug dump with the comfort of an inoculate &quot;Error&quot; displayed in a small Window on the screen without reason.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other major issue is the number of packages, ancillary to default groups, and ancillary to every release. There appears no standard in offering standard applications in each KDE/Gnome release. For example where has acroread gone in 11.0 11.1 etc, where has Ksystemlog gone from 10.2-10.3-11.0, where has the application quickstarter gone from KDE3.5 in 10.3, why has koffice been suddenly added to default categories of a KDE 4.n installation, where has GKreIIM gone. Applications, come and go out of default grouping or removed from the media and placed into optional build services. Its not that I think we need to include thousands of optional offerings in both groups categories. All I am suggesting is that we be consistent and have a standard.<br />
As a development project, ancillary applications come and go from installation media without reason and in this industry the lack of standards and defaults only points to poor or no control over the development project.</p>
<p>Our expectations are substantially poor &#8211; we excuse no or poor application development and testing because of our open industry.</p>
<p>We accept far too readily that bugs in their high hundreds are acceptable.</p>
<p>We become complacent in the number of times we accept a RC1 candidates to be mastered and released on mass without thought of going to an RC8 etc.</p>
<p>We will never be realized as a serious competitor to the other monstrously dismal technical prowess of the other O/S because the market place does not give a dam about technical excellence at the root of Linux.</p>
<p>NO I.T manager is going to look at us if his/her job suffers user backlash by users who just want to click and have an application work &#8211; every time.</p>
<p>End users and non-technical CEO&#8217;s will never accept an I.T Managers selection of our technically better O/S or application software, Open or Enterprise who is sacked for a tangible increase in cost of any Industries loss of administrative and automation dependent productivity.</p>
<p>I love how much we grow, I love the inclusion of the worlds minds, I love the equity in our technical right to produce or increase workplace standards.</p>
<p>I cry defending the front end/back end/middle end/command line of an out of focus window or debug dump with the comfort of an inoculate &#8220;Error&#8221; displayed in a small Window on the screen without reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Bernard</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6910</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6910</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am using suse 11.0 x86 RPM combined with everything offered.I even have 32 bit with it also. Don&#039;t know what the whining is about..I do one update daily. I am waiting on a copy of suse 11.1 86x DVD in the mail. I find it rather comfortable that the server actually updates a system. Unlike windows..  I have Nvidia graphic driver conforms very well with suse 11.0.  I will keep this in mind when i install suse 11.1 on my other hard drive..You guys are right on the factory distro..I could not get it to initate on xen. Seems that The only working copy of suse is a labor intensive build on the users part to have exactly what you want.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am using suse 11.0 x86 RPM combined with everything offered.I even have 32 bit with it also. Don&#8217;t know what the whining is about..I do one update daily. I am waiting on a copy of suse 11.1 86x DVD in the mail. I find it rather comfortable that the server actually updates a system. Unlike windows..  I have Nvidia graphic driver conforms very well with suse 11.0.  I will keep this in mind when i install suse 11.1 on my other hard drive..You guys are right on the factory distro..I could not get it to initate on xen. Seems that The only working copy of suse is a labor intensive build on the users part to have exactly what you want.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6909</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6909</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would say the usability and stability of Factory ist more than Debian Testing than Debian Unstable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say the usability and stability of Factory ist more than Debian Testing than Debian Unstable.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliasse</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6903</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliasse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Adrian,

I first of all thank you and all the members of the core development team of our beloved Linux Distro openSUSE for the great work you are doing. I switched to the Factory Distribution two weeks after the release of openSUSE 11.1 and I can assure you that dependency problems became rare with the latest upstreams of the Factory builds. This confirms the improvements made in the build system as you pointed out.

Anyway, the reeimplementation of the feature of YaST which automagically detects packages made obsolete by newer ones like we used to see in the past during an update or an upgrade would be very helpful. It offers the possibility of a clean installation and solves by the way all dependency issues. I deactivated recently all the main repos of the stable release and I am working with the foctory trees of the distribution as well as some of the OBS and my system is stable enough. I only missed the latest stable release of the kernel and this is very often the case in the Factory tree. The switch to a newer kernel always takes long or does not happen at all. To the maintainer of the kernel repo of the OBS I would like to say that the release candidates of the development version has a serious imcopatibility issue with the Nvidia graphic driver whereas the stable release has none. So I suggest that she/he gives the latter a try.

Once again thanks of a lot for all the efforts in increasing the quality of the software you deliver to the community, making our distro the best choice for all.

openSUSE is unbreakable.

Have a lot of fun]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Adrian,</p>
<p>I first of all thank you and all the members of the core development team of our beloved Linux Distro openSUSE for the great work you are doing. I switched to the Factory Distribution two weeks after the release of openSUSE 11.1 and I can assure you that dependency problems became rare with the latest upstreams of the Factory builds. This confirms the improvements made in the build system as you pointed out.</p>
<p>Anyway, the reeimplementation of the feature of YaST which automagically detects packages made obsolete by newer ones like we used to see in the past during an update or an upgrade would be very helpful. It offers the possibility of a clean installation and solves by the way all dependency issues. I deactivated recently all the main repos of the stable release and I am working with the foctory trees of the distribution as well as some of the OBS and my system is stable enough. I only missed the latest stable release of the kernel and this is very often the case in the Factory tree. The switch to a newer kernel always takes long or does not happen at all. To the maintainer of the kernel repo of the OBS I would like to say that the release candidates of the development version has a serious imcopatibility issue with the Nvidia graphic driver whereas the stable release has none. So I suggest that she/he gives the latter a try.</p>
<p>Once again thanks of a lot for all the efforts in increasing the quality of the software you deliver to the community, making our distro the best choice for all.</p>
<p>openSUSE is unbreakable.</p>
<p>Have a lot of fun</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Schröter</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6902</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Schröter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Factory is like unstable in Debian, yes. However, debian has the 1) approach AFAIK and we run now the optimized 2) approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Factory is like unstable in Debian, yes. However, debian has the 1) approach AFAIK and we run now the optimized 2) approach.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Adrian Schröter</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6901</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Schröter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6901</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are right, this has been implemented with delta generation support in mind. We will do this for sure also, but I want to see first if this current code works well.

There is already an &quot;IMPLEMENT ME&quot; comment in the build script for this ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, this has been implemented with delta generation support in mind. We will do this for sure also, but I want to see first if this current code works well.</p>
<p>There is already an &#8220;IMPLEMENT ME&#8221; comment in the build script for this ;)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Xtigyro</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6900</link>
		<dc:creator>Xtigyro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6900</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It sounds like some kind of the &quot;unstable&quot; repo in Debian... or I am wrong? :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like some kind of the &#8220;unstable&#8221; repo in Debian&#8230; or I am wrong? :)</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus Meissner</title>
		<link>http://news.opensuse.org/2009/02/05/more-efficient-factory-development/comment-page-1/#comment-6899</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus Meissner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.opensuse.org/?p=1162#comment-6899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This method avoids doing updates at all if not necessary ... so it should be way more effective ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This method avoids doing updates at all if not necessary &#8230; so it should be way more effective ;)</p>
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